Background Information:
Carol Hegedus is a former Program Director of the Fetzer Institute. She is the author of John E. Fetzer: Stories of One Man's Search (Fetzer Institute, 2004) and resides in Tucson, Arizona.
David Peat carried out research in theoretical physics at the National Research Council of Canada and collaborated with David Bohm. He has initiated dialogue circles with Native American elders and Western scientists, and between artists and scientists. In 1996 he left Canada for the medieval hilltop village of Pari in Tuscany where he founded the Pari Center for New Learning. See www.fdavidpeat.com and www.paricenter.com.
Interviewer: Poet and philosopher Mark Nepo has taught in the fields of poetry and spirituality for over thirty years. The author of ten books, his most recent title is The Equisite Risk (Harmony Books, NY, 2005). Mark server as a Program Officer at the Fetzer Institute.
Fetzer Staff: Jomie Goerge, Zelene Wilkins
June 9, 2003
| Nepo | I’ll ask the first question. When we use the phrase “generosity of spirit,” what constellation of things comes up? How would you define that or what does that bring up for you? What kind of a spiritual value does it describe? |
| Hegedus | For me it brings up this capacity to be open to whatever is coming towards me, a creative place. It’s a very open and receptive and creative place. [When I knew] we were going to do this, I kept tabs of things that were coming to me. I have an image of stars exploding and lightning bolts. The kind of power and energy of something that opens and changes and turns things into expansive directions. It felt like it was about opening and expressing what was unknown consciously in us but was coming from our deepest knowing. You know, we don’t know what we’re saying sometimes, it comes from a place of knowing that is beyond our mental comprehension. And so it’s not a place of unknowing, it’s a place of knowing that goes very deep. I guess the story that was most relevant to me about generosity of spirit, was when I think about what happened on 9/11. This is what a lot of people talked about. The shock and the sense of real connection to what people were facing in New York City. I really identified when they came forth with [stories of] firefighters in places of great danger and people responding with money and going to help in any way that they could. That felt like a huge outpouring of generosity of spirit. I also saw that generosity closed down and now there is a very different feeling that has been brought about by many different political things—such as questions about the money that was collected, whether it was distributed and the various distortions around that generosity. |
| Peat | I’m thinking of a man I know who has a bit of money. He sits around and invites people to come to dinner. He has a big dinner and is at the center of the table smiling and laughing. He makes generous gestures but somehow he seems to be thinking, "How do I look in their eyes?" Somehow there is this generosity of money but where is the spirit? This person is inherently generous and would have generosity of spirit but there is something in the [motive] —the [question] of who am I to these people, how do I look to them? This barrier makes it so that it never quite works, you don’t feel the joy of being with this person. Somehow all at once you need to get more than he’s giving. He’s giving a lot of money but he needs something from you. So that’s not generosity. I was just thinking of people that are really deeply engaged in their work—they could be artists, scientists, or writers or musicians—they are very deeply engaged in it and it’s deeply rewarding to them. They want to share it with you so when you’re with them, they are incredibly supportive, going out of their way to be supportive. They really would like you to see their world. And there doesn’t seem to be any sort of sense of ego in them; there’s no ego. It’s sort of a creative outpouring in their work and it spills over into their life. I’ve known a few people like that. The sharing seems to becoming from having a very deep engagement with something that’s really important to them, whatever it is, whether or not it’s a composer, or a scientist or a writer. So maybe, there is no such thing as true altruism. It all seems to be tied up with energy too. The more they’re with you and the more they help you and suggest things, the more energy they seem to create in themselves. But whether that’s spirit, I don’t know. Some people have a real genuine desire to help you because they see something there in you. They say, Yes, I want to see that because it’s beautiful, I want to see it. |
| Goerge | This morning you both were talking about the work that you’ve done and the dialogues we’ve done on the Native Americans. Part of this project is looking at stories of generosity of spirit from different cultures and different kinds of people. I’ve always been interested in indigenous people and Native Americans. I’m wondering if you have any thoughts about where we could look to gather stories from indigenous cultures, which people who you think we really should be talking to, some guidance or thoughts about the direction we might want to go. |
| Hegedus | That’s a tough one because they don’t even use the term generosity of spirit. |
| Goerge | That’s one of the things that comes up . . . it’s so inherent in their culture and their way of life, that’s it not a big deal. |
| Hegedus | Also, by calling it “generosity of spirit” puts it into an object. You have to describe this object, feel this object, feel into it instead of experiencing it, and live out of. |
| Peat | I remember when David Bohm was at a meeting with the elders. I think it was Sa’ke’ji who said this man’s energy is very low. When we pass around, I think it was an eagle feather, we must give some of our energy to the it. Then when it comes to him, the energy will go to him because everything’s in balance. Everything is balanced. |
| Hegedus | I have this story running through my head . . . and I don’t even know how it is relevant. It was told by this old gentle tiny indigenous man that was from Alaska. He talked about how in their village there was this huge lake and part of the village was on either side of the lake. And it’s interesting he didn’t say call it the other village—both parts were part of the village. The community was just on either side of the lake. He talked about how in the spring when the ice melts on the lake, the young people learn very young how to get from one part of the village to the other part of the village. By this incredible act—a combination of movement and balance. On the water when the ice has begun to melt, there is a thin blue layer of water over the ice. If they step too heavily, they will sink through and probably die or be frozen. If they stop, they will sink. There is something in the movement from going here to there . . . The movement and the rhythm and the communion with the water and the ice, that to me, feels like generosity of spirit. Isn’t that interesting? But would they every call that generosity of spirit? I can’t imagine anyone would. |
| Goerge | See, that’s part of my questioning with this and the same thing with love and forgiveness. I think that it’s really important for us not to leave out the visions of these cultures. [Even if it’s hard to] figure out a way to have the conversation around generosity of spirit or love and forgiveness because they wouldn’t objectify these things and it is part of who they are. It’s more inherent and I think embodied and not so much so talked about. |
| Hegedus | I guess that’s why the story is true. Why it is generosity of spirit for these young people crossing, or anybody, crossing this water? But learning for the first time how to do this, there has to be this huge amount of trust that you’re going to make it. To never question that and know that he’s called to some great potential in himself to do that crossing. |
| Peat | How much they are giving to cross the water. |
| Hegedus | Right, but there isn’t that fear that holds back with that oppressive nature that we tend to have in ourselves. It’s a given that it’s as natural as breathing to do this. But, see I think there are some of these native people who are very good translators and very believable in— how can I say both worlds when it’s the same world—but they have this capacity to language, in their cultures, and very often it is in the language where the . . . |
| Wilkins | Yes, because we’re finding out even in English as we are doing this research on the Internet that we’re coming across so many different words that people are using for generosity of spirit, from anything from excitement to compassion. All these different meanings contribute to the word. |
| Peat | Are you talking about the Islamic community? Because you know there is Rimi’s path of love and Bin Arabi’s path of a more of intellectual inquiry. These paths compliment each other so you need love and you need the intellectual side too. |
| Hegedus | But the “give-away” is a major part of the native culture when people gather. |
| Peat | Like the Potlatch, yes, with the more you give away, the richer you are. |
| Hegedus | Right, the more you give, you give it all. |
| Nepo | Can you talk a little bit about the Potlatch ritual or tradition as you both have experienced it? |
| Peat | We’ve never been to where they came from, British Columbia. Aren’t there other cultures that give away things? There’s one call the Cassawary Cult in some islands in the Pacific. Different armies used to battle together there, so what they did instead was give the other tribe a Cassawary [a bird] or the money to buy a Cassawary. So all your energy goes into getting enough goods you can buy a Cassawary, so you turn a battle into a giving. |
| Hegedus | I’m thinking here that this is a bracelet that Leroy Little Bear gave me when we were up in Canyon de Chelly. Because I admired the bracelet or because it was just part of the spirit of the time and the moment, of being where there were Navaho craftsmen up in the canyon. All of us had such a good time together. We had spent a lot of time but it was interesting to me, it’s like being with your family and when someone sees something that they like, they will just buy it for you. There were so many gifts flowing when we were there that it was just quite special. I have this thing where it’s hard to receive—it’s hard to describe. There is a huge sense, I think, in those indigenous people where giving is connected to memory, I don’t quite know how it fits in the whole, but there’s a lot of gift giving and generosity that is very spontaneous. |
| Peat | There’s something else which is the idea of giving as a form of social semantics. I’m thinking in Italy it’s very difficult to pay anybody anything. We bought a dishwasher before Christmas and we still owe $200 on it. Whenever the people are around, they come to the village, on weekends, we see them. We ask: can we pay now? No, next time, next time. Pay me next time. And when we went to London for three months, my car insurance lapsed and a man in the village paid it. When I got back, he said: this is my very good friend David, he owed me $3,000 for three months. So because I owed him the money for three months, I was a very good friend. So it was a sense of debts and obligations, of being a sort of cement in that society. You go to pay the rent. They say; come in and have some vin santo and pay me tomorrow. So it was that sense of giving, making connections. I don’t know how that works in this society. |
| Hegedus | That is what it does feel like when I’m in that receiving and giving space. |
| Peat | So is philanthropy also that way of making connection? It’s not you just giving the money. You’re being generous but you’re getting something back. Philanthropy is getting something back. |
| Hegedus | People want their work to be seen and they want to know it’s appreciated. |
| Peat | They’re entering into a relationship. If they give you the money, it’s not just giving you the money, but entering into a relationship in which both people win. So we should both be winning. |
| Wilkins | I’m curious. Where did you learn or where do you think you first learned about generosity in your life? And do you think that it’s something that can be taught? Like when we talk about education of the heart, for instance. Is it a value that you’ve been taught? |
| Peat | I can remember as a little little boy in Liverpool going down the entry and asking people, "Will you give me two pennies so I can buy my mother something?" That’s one of my earliest memories, begging for money. So we used to buy what we called spills—little pieces of wood that you used to light the fire. Or anything like that. I was always asking for money so I could buy my mother something. I don’t know where that came from. Begging, this manic begging. |
| Wilkins | So you can buy for someone else. |
| Hegedus | That’s interesting because what that triggered in me was the memory of getting my allowance just because I was part of the family. I remember my parents didn’t tie it to making my bed or doing the dishes. Those things you were expected to do and the pay was not for that. It was very clear, it was for being part of the family. But this money was to buy things for mom and save money. You would buy things for your mom’s birthday or your dad’s birthday or your brother’s birthday or you know, occasionally, you would have the money to spend at a birthday party or a movie or something. But it wasn’t really thought about. I mean you went to movies anyway. It was having your own choice, like you decided to do [it]. It’s funny, I remember doing that for my kids and it’s very interesting. Some kids spend all their money and others hoard it. |
| Peat | I can remember when I was older, like about 15 or 16, we had teachers at school and they were pretty awful people. But the art master was exceptional because he used to talk to me as an equal. He didn’t talk down to me. I’d say a magazine had come in with an illustration. He’d say: “What do you think of that? If you like it, do you know why you like it? You know why, yes, that’s right.” It was an incredible thing to me, the first time anybody didn’t talk down or be an authority figure or anything like that. |
| Wilkins | That’s interesting. I’ve heard that story a lot about the teacher valuing you, who you are as an individual, and that changing your whole perception. It’s seen as generosity. So many times we look at the material things. |
| Nepo | You know one of the things that we’ve come onto in our exploration of this is that whole notion of whether you have finite resources or infinite resources. How when we give what we have, even if we’re generous, we’re always somehow counting how much is left instead of what we can afford to give. But when we give who we are or our time or our attention or our care, it’s bottomless. |
| Hegedus | Well, the point is that you give everything you have, isn’t it? You weigh it all out and it’s not that you’re going to run out. And you can’t take it with you. |
| Peat | You know, that’s true. I get a lot of e-mails. A lot of people say I have read your book, it’s a wonderful book. So you get all of these. Generally I pop them in the box to be dealt with and never ever get round to dealing with them—I mean to, but never get round to it. But on occasion one will come across. I really don’t have time to reply to it, but in the end I spend a long time replying and I don’t know why that is. Something comes through and you really want to take the time to reply or you have a question . . . I don’t know what it is. |
| Hegedus | It’s interesting because there’s this woman that I met at a conference—she was the facilitator of this group I was in, about ten years ago at least. Afterward, I remember really liking what she had done and wrote just a little thank-you note to her. About six months ago I got a phone call from this woman. I really had to think of who it was. She was in Tucson and she had to track me down because I wasn’t even living in Tucson at that point when we met. She was in Tucson and she wanted to have lunch, her husband was there with her. She said that she had taken that note and put it on her bulletin board over her desk and held onto it. She just wanted to meet the person who sent her that note. I have no idea what was in the note. No idea whatsoever. But I did recognize her. You know you get this phone call, you have no choice but to meet and I was curious, too. But I had a great rapport with her and she’s a woman of healing. She had done this demo in this meeting and needed a volunteer, and pointed at me so I had been the recipient. I have no idea what I wrote. So what was in her that called her ten years later to follow up? To me that was generosity of spirit as well. Something reciprocal here. |
| Peat | We seem to be talking about this in terms of exchanges and networks and owing money or whatever, it makes bonds between people. |
| Nepo | That leads us to something else I wanted to ask you about. Wayne Muller, who is a part of our team, when we asked him to be a part of this, he said, I’ll only be a part of this if it’s about giving and receiving. Do you have any thoughts or what feelings come up about the relationship between giving and receiving? We certainly can be generous by receiving, too. |
| Peat | I don’t have your problem, Carol. My wife does. If you offer her a gift of money, she says, "No, I couldn’t." And I say "Oh, thank you." It really feels good. Sometimes people, right when we had someone give a talk, would say, "I’d like to give a donation to your center." And I say, "Oh, thank you." It made me feel good whereas Maureen would have a real problem with that. I don’t know what the difference is. |
| Hegedus | I have a relative who is very, very wealthy. She has children and two of them committed suicide. She’s very emotionally needy. When I would go visit her, she would be crying her heart out. And when I’d leave, she would always give me something that seemed way out of proportion. It’s always been very uncomfortable being around her, generally. I mean she has huge amounts of money, great wealth, and would never think of giving charity to anybody. She hoards and so then when I’m leaving, it’s always when we’re walking out the door; she’ll give me very expensive jewelry or something. I’ve learned not to say what I’m admiring or tell her that something is lovely. I’ve never seen her have a healthy relationship with giving. The other side of the deal is how my grandchildren give me these gifts. They are so pure and they don’t have money to give, but they’ll color me pictures. On my last birthday, they gave me these little boxes that they had made and drawn on. Allie said, “I put all kinds of kisses in there.” I mean it was unbelievable. It has a whole different feel than all the jewelry my aunt hands me. |
| Goerge | So what is it? I know exactly what you’re talking about but I wonder why. Why is it easier sometimes for some people to give than receive? It’s easier for some people to receive than to give. When you do receive things, why is it easier sometimes to receive something like that than a gift that has a monetary value to it? |
| Hegedus | It has to be something in the “how.” I remember going out to see Norman Cousins. We were going to fund some project out there at UCLA with this group that we were doing research with at the time. Rob and I talked before and we figured we had $50-60,000 and I would go out, scout it out. (You know that was very little in terms of their total budget.) But the funny thing about it was that while I was there having this wonderful conversation with Norman Cousins, in the middle of the conversation, he said, “So, I’d really like $5,000,000 for the program.” But it was done in this absolute smoothness, not in a negative way, but it was like the most natural thing in the world to ask for this huge amount of money. And I was just stunned; I said, “I’ve never had anybody ask for that much money so smoothly. How did you do that?” And he said, “Well, Carol, it’s not for me, it’s for the work. For me it would be very different. It’s not for me.” So what that told me was that it was for the larger good and that we can ask for anything for the larger good, for the greater whole. It wasn’t for him and it wasn’t his ego and it felt so different. You’ve all been around people who’ve asked for whatever and it’s very uncomfortable. You get asked all the time. We used to always get asked. |
| Goerge | That’s part of the problem in philanthropy. |
| Hegedus | And when they’re going to ask me for something, then make an appointment. |
| Peat | It’s like being a doctor; going to a party. . . everyone needs to tell them their medical problems. |
| Hegedus | Working at a foundation is very hard because you don’t know what is true and what is real and what is relationship . . . it’s a huge issue. |
| Wilkins | That might be the difference with the kids . . . you know, giving out of pureness. |
| Nepo | I remember . . . I know we’re interviewing you but I’ll share this. I know Carol knows, but I’m a cancer survivor. During my cancer journey, one of the most profound lessons was that everyone was around me with love, trying to help me, which I needed. But there was a point—this was over a three-year period—when all of those people got burned out. As much as they loved me, it was hurting them. And with those people who could talk to me openly about it suddenly I felt like I was needed. I could give to them. It went both ways. Suddenly there were moments when we weren’t sure who was sick and who was well because there was that opportunity for me to give back in ways. They were doing all kinds of things for me but I could give something back to them. That was a medicine. |
| Goerge | And it could be received from them, too. They received that from you as well, that’s part of the equation as well. |
| Nepo | So that goes back to the energy thing that that flow of that love and that energy is a medicine all unto itself. |
| Hegedus | And that raises the love when my daughter had that stroke. It was the biggest thing for me. There was no question about making a house payment, paying a car payment, taking on my granddaughter during that time. As long as she needed it, just giving her the money to pay every bill she had—she couldn’t work, what else can you do? No question. I think the questions and conflicts in me came from [asking] how can I help her to take care of herself and not enable her depression? How not take over too much. [Asking myself] "How do you parent?" was what I remember going through. In a session with the psychologist, I said: "I don’t know how to parent. What is enough? What is too much? How do I parent? And when does a parent stop? What is the nature of this helping?" You have to work through those times, not knowing the results. But things kind of happen over the way that you grow and learn something from. |
| Wilkins | I wasn’t born in the United State of America, I was born in Africa and one of the greatest stories of generosity is being able to come to this country and experience generosity from Americans and I know that it has changed me. I know that it has changed me in a lot of ways just from receiving so many gifts of generous acts. So I was wondering in your experience from traveling, and especially for you, in Italy, going to the village and being welcome, has that changed you at all? |
| Peat | It probably has. Yes, the Pari people are very generous. All the things they’ve done for us. If you try to speak a little bit of Italian they really like it so much. Also, it’s a village where our grandchild, at the age of three, can walk alone to our house and go out and play. No one needs to watch him. If there’s a festival on, they say, "Where’s your child?" and you say "I don’t know, he’s around here somewhere", because [everyone] is looking after him. The two people with Alzheimers in the village, they walk around and if they seem to be going out of the village, someone will lead them back in. So they just do this circle around so everybody looks after them. It’s like a family in a way; everybody is looking after everybody, looking out for them. |
| Nepo | How do you imagine that’s been taught? Is it just assumed? How did that become the unspoken assumption? |
| Peat | The other thing is that it’s a public life. In the summer, people have their chairs outside the front door, sitting in the street, and with the front door open, they watch their television set. They sit in the streets to watch the TV so they are still outside saying hi to people. So you go past, "Hi there, how are you?" . . . so it’s a communal way. And it’s also a way to be more public, maybe to have less privacy. Another thing is this idea of a persona—or the mask people have—I’m a teacher, I’m the father, there is less of that in the village. If the lady in the shop doesn’t have a good night, she’s crabby in the morning. She doesn’t try to be nice so there’s less a sense of putting on a face of a persona. People are what they are. I like that. |
| Hegedus | I like that. It’s real. |
| Nepo | The opposite is so prevalent and sophisticated in Western [cultures], and especially, American culture. There is this poker face, this way of hiding what you are really feeling. |
| Goerge | [It’s so] inauthentic. Here’s how you’re supposed to act, how you’re supposed to be. This culture has these assumptions, so people, for whatever reason, are afraid to be who there are. And I love to hear stories like that, it gives me hope, it’s refreshing to think, oh my gosh, there actually are still places in this world that life is like that, that this is not so inauthentic. |
| Peat | I’m sure there must be lots of small communities in the States like that. |
| Hegedus | A neighborhood. |
| Peat | Yes, right. |
| Goerge | This is part of this project that excites me and part of the work with the new mission—the [folktale] pieces; those are not the stories that you hear, those are not the things that are highlighted in our culture. The stories that get highlighted are the material success stories and the stories of independence and privacy, they’re not the stories of communal life and people helping one another out, that story of the [people with] Alzheimer’s, it touches my heart. You don’t hear stories like that even though it’s happening in places here. You don’t hear those stories unless you’re fortunate enough to live in that kind of community. |
| Wilkins | People say, "Why have you lived here 15 years? Why Kalamazoo?" But I lived in a small neighborhood and people watched out. I can’t tell you how many times I forgot to lock my door and nothing ever happened. And when it snows, sometimes I would get up in the morning and someone got to my driveway and plowed the snow because I couldn’t do it myself or cut my grass so many times. I don’t know who cut it . . . so I went around saying thank you to everybody because you never know. But you do experience it and it’s there but it’s just a matter of finding them. |
| Peat | My wife’s vision of when we lived in Canada was that everybody has their own lawnmower. But we had this postage-size yard and the guy on the side of me has this electric lawnmower and he would plow this little bit exactly to the center. . . and it’s madness. |
| Nepo | It is madness. This leads us to . . . what do you think are the chief barriers to generosity? |
| Hegedus | One thing is fear that if you give it away, you’ll never get it again. |
| Peat | Some sort of internal balance sheet that people have. |
| Hegedus | Absolutely. |
| Peat | They’re always watching . . . in a prior job where I was, they were going to form a union and there was some argument about it. We learned that we were paid much higher than the university teachers, in the same field, we were paid much higher. So everybody said this was great. Anyway, we’re all paid a lot higher so we all felt good and then somebody says, Bill, what do you get? He said about $35,000 a year. Well, wait a minute. . . I’ve been here two years longer than you and I only get $32,000. Pretty soon, everybody was at each other’s throats. They’re unhappy. They all got paid more, but he got $2,000 more than me. It was a terrible, terrible thing to see. |
| Hegedus | So, one of the challenges is communication and noncommuncation too. |
| Nepo | Do any of you have remaining questions for this part of the conversation? We were discussing the chief barriers to generosity. I would like to ask that question. Also, does any one person come to mind as a particularly significant model of generosity in your life? |
| Peat | There are mean-spirited people. Often people are hurt inside, something happened in their childhood. It’s very said when you meet people like that. There’re a lot of them around. There’s been some hurt, some damage, somewhere they haven’t grown. It’s a meanness of spirit, like they haven’t grown. I mean, it’s amazing that people can go through their lives, become very old and still are ruined from childhood. I don’t know what can be done for people like that. |
| Hegedus | But it feels to me that fear that’s a part of it. Fear of real relationship, fear of being seen for who they are, fear of financial ruin, fear of they’re not being enough left over. Or that you can’t get back. Holding back, just holding yourself back is a lack of authenticity at times, just don’t quite engage, aren’t present. |
| Peat | It’s also as if organizations have personalities. There are organizations that are like that, no matter who comes in. |
| Nepo | This goes back to the question you asked, can generosity be taught or is there an environment that can be created, like with our work with education of the heart? Obviously, you can’t enforce anybody to grow, but are there things that can be done to foster a chance for transformation. |
| Hegedus | There has to be an experience of generosity of spirit before it can be integrated and embodied. So to recall those experiences and stories are a great way for people to connect. To really stretch the limit on stories, there’s one aspect of freedom of spirit (isn’t that interesting that I said that instead of generosity of spirit . . . they’re very related to me) we haven’t talked about. For me, the experience of generosity of spirit comes from that inner sound that I hear that teaches and aligns and is my connection to spirit. So how can that not be generosity . . . but it can. So that’s my experience of generosity of spirit or freedom of spirit. So what is a parallel for somebody that doesn’t hear the way I hear? And even if there is something like that, how do they frame it? I don’t know. It’s just been a gradual process and understanding for me. |
| Peat | I could tell you about an experience at one of the western scientists' Native American Elders Circles, the one we had in Banff. There was an astrophysicist there who on the first day said, "I respect what LeRoy and Sa’ke’je say, but I have no respect for you." |
| Hegedus | He said that to you? |
| Peat | He said a lot of odd things. That evening someone said, "Why is that guy behaving like that?" and I said,"Oh, he’s trying to bond with the physicist, that’s the only way he knows." He was quite aggressive but the other people were really nice to him. And Sunday at the end of the day he said, "I want to tell you what it was like when I was a child." And he told them a story of the sky and the wonder and everything all came out, but it required that week in order for him to finally to pour out his own spirit. Up until that time, he was rigid and reductionist, the hard mind, so maybe it was being in that atmosphere, that field of generosity, that he was able to get something back. |
| Hegedus | But I’ve also seen people do that to LeRoy in the circle. I remember one time some woman attacking him, “Why do you talk that way, why won’t you just get on, all you do is tell stories, I’m so sick of these long stories, and why do you talk so slow?” I don’t know that that’s bonding—it feels like the opposite of generosity of spirit. |
| Peat | Say an organization has a meanness of spirit. I’ve been studying organizations. . . they give an example of an organization in which there were two CEOs and a lot of conflict. She went back in its records and found it was founded by two brothers during the Civil War who were on opposite sides. She felt somehow there’s a memory in organization that goes right through. If you have an organization with mean spirit, how do you change it? Or do you do nothing about it? So there is a field around an organization, how to you protect that field. |
| Hegedus | When this building was built, John Fetzer planted all sorts of things that were crystals and foundational relics that had an energy that he believed he wanted to implant here. It was founded with the conscious knowing of that energy. |
| Nepo | With organizations as with families and relationships, how do we nurture or provide the support for consciousness of the patterns and the support to grace the patterns. I think that gets into the naming and the stories of the power of naming. It is such a key and such a mystery. How does a workplace, other people in the relationship, break that chain and start a new tradition. That’s a real mystery. |
| Hegedus | That’s the real question. If it’s part of your identity and your cellular makeup, how does that shift? |
| Peat | In the physical system, like physics and chaos systems, to make any change, there would have to be a period of chaos. You can never do that smoothly, it has to run to chaos. If you’re in chaos, all possibilities are present. Chaos is out of lack of order. But it’s also an order of infinite complex degree so you have to go into where all possibilities are present and then it condenses out of that and organizes again, on this fear of the chaos. |
| Hegedus | What was my original image? It was of stars exploding, lightning . . . |
| Wilkins | It’s kind of like life is the power of history, the power of stories, and the ability to know yourself. An organization needs to know itself in order to be able to break out of those patterns. |
| Hegedus | Absolutely. So what is Fetzer’s story on generosity of spirit? Have we gone there? |
| Wilkins | No, we haven’t. |
| Hegedus | And it can’t be connected only to the money. |
| Nepo | That’s really a wonderful question to explore. I think also in terms of the education of the heart, David, that you just brought up. Chaos is necessary for transformation at some point. If you look at any tradition—in Sheva, in Buddhism—it has to break down so then in a humane and compassionate way you can do something. Does that mean [that we should] also provide the support to hold people and help them through that chaos? |
| Hegedus | I can’t imagine an organization doing it differently . . . a generous organization doing it differently. |
| Nepo | I know that almost becomes like a premise for the kind of work we’re entering if it’s acknowledged that chaos is necessary. But if you have to squirt people in organizations and relationships through that chaos. To close, is there a significant teacher or model who has been important in your life, or a teacher of generosity for each of you? |
| Hegedus | My grandmother for me . . . she had very little but gave everything she had. The thing that is the most peculiar is that she never spoke English and so I grew up never having a conversation with her. But there is no doubt in my mind . . . I felt this huge closeness and great love and I still feel connected to her, very, very deeply. But somehow it didn’t matter what words she knew, she knew me and I knew her, and it didn’t take words. |
| Nepo | Generosity isn’t limited to the language of words. |
| Hegedus | Oh, I don’t think so. |
| Peat | There may have been people along the line, not one who I would pick out. But I found myself thinking maybe it was the universe, nature, this incredible outpouring, plants and animals and stars and everything. I used to like to put my hand in the soil, getting dirty, under the fingernails. . . this wonderful place. There was this great universe. A very generous one. |
| Nepo | I would immediately refer to my grandmother, my grandmother who was more like a mother to me. Here her biggest generosity was her belief in me. She would just always tell me in her own way, she spoke broken English and was from Russia, but she would look at me as a peer, she would look at me and take me by the hand. She’d say my hands were the oldest thing I own. She would say that everything was possible, not anything you couldn’t do. |
| Peat | I guess my grandmother gave me a good argument about death. I was little and she was in her nineties, and I’d say, are you going to die? What do you think about dying? She’d say I’ll go when the time come,s but not before. She wasn’t worried about being dead. So it was interesting for me as a kid, you know you’re going to die and that was interesting. In fact, it was very practical—to not pretend that you’re going to live forever and all that. |
| Nepo | Is there anything else you want to share, some way of closing. |
| Goerge | My grandmother, too. It was really interesting because she really believed in me and she was this really amazing woman. |